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Message |
| Posted By: |
Lizard |
| Response to: |
Holistic Life Interview - 1982,
Posted by: Lizard |
| Date: |
20-Jun-2000 |
| Subject: |
Re: Holistic Life Interview - 1982 |
Here is the completion of the article. So glad you all are enjoying it! I certainly did! Lizard
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Holistic Life: What’s the difference between a teacher and a guru?
Atmananda (Rama): The word guru means dispeller of darkness – a teacher is essentially the same thing. People call you what you generally call yourself, so I label myself as a spiritual teacher, therefore that’s what people call me. I feel it’s most fitting but if I grew up in this lifetime in the East, I would be called a guru. I think it’s good to work out of the context of the culture that you’re in.
Holistic Life: What do you think is the biggest obstacle to spiritual growth in our culture?
Atmananda (Rama): The media – the belief that if something is acceptable to the media then it is therefore viable. In other words, the spiritual teacher or pathway that gets the most press is in some way more valid than others. If you throw a bigger campaign for a movie it doesn’t mean it’s a better movie. In other words, people believe in appearance too much and they don’t look for a deeper reality.
The biggest obstruction to enlightenment in the west have been the teachers that have come from the east. Certainly not all, but a vast majority of them have simply been looking for a cult following. They have just been indoctrinating followers, teaching them partial truths. Sincere people have gone to them and gotten very confused or even given up the spiritual search and they blame not the false teachers but themselves.
Holistic Life: What can an individual do on a daily basis to make leaps in his spiritual growth.
Atmanada (Rama): You have to be terribly daring – you can’t follow the crowd. If you follow the crowd, you end up in the crowd and the crowd doesn’t attain enlightenment. There’s nothing wrong with that, it’s just a different stage in the process. Nevertheless, if a person’s goal is enlightenment they have to be daringly different and stop worrying about enlightenment and work towards the enlightenment of others. That’s the secret – know that you want enlightenment, find a teacher that is fully enlightened and work with him to enlighten others. You have to have an eye for the future, be totally concerned with the welfare of others and to live that.
Holistic Life: Why are so many people so fearful of the phenomenal experiences, for example, the room dissolving into golden light and so on, when you meditate?
Atmanada (Rama): Hardly anyone has ever met a person who is self-realized. They don’t understand how powerful it is. It’s not a common experience and they’re afraid, they disbelieve. They feel the reality in you relating to reality itself and it unnerves people. It always has. That’s why Christ was crucified.
You can have the Dharma right in front of you in an enlightened person and they dissolve and become a reflector of the infinite – and the infinite scares the hell out of people because it means that they might eventually become happy and clear and people don’t want that. They like to cling to unhappiness and death and frustration.
People talk about being spiritual day in and day out but very few people practice it because you have to live it. You have to care about others. You have to be humble and together.
Holistic Life: How do you know or sense that it’s time to leave your teacher? When does the student leave the master?
Atmananda (Rama): The teacher tells you if you have a real one. Now again, if you have a false teacher, they might just like to keep you around. They’re afraid, if there’s paranoia, that you might go out and surpass them. They want your money or whatever it might be – there’s a lot of possibilities. Traditionally, when the student’s education is complete, if the student goes to the end of the process, the teacher kicks the student out – say, “Go out and do something.”
Very often many students stay with the teacher until the teacher dies. That’s because they haven’t completed their enlightenment or they just want to be with the teacher. In spite of that, a real teacher might send them away; say, “go out and work.”
Holistic Life: How many fully-realized people are there on the earth today?
Atmananda (Rama): Twelve, including myself. That’s a bold statement to make. There’re eleven others and I’m very aware of them all. And only one is a woman.
Holistic Life: With so many women represented in the “new age” why do you feel there is only one that is fully-realized?
Atmananda (Rama): Well, the reason women don’t attain enlightenment is because of men. Men have held them back. Women entering the spiritual tradition is very new. There have always been a few Buddhist nuns and stuff and of course in the Christian tradition there were sisters but they were always relegated to a secondary position, they were always put in the back seat. As far as I know we’re one of the first spiritual organizations to deal with a focus more on women than on men. I spend a little more time with my women students because I feel that I have an exceptional group of women students. I feel a number of them will attain enlightenment in this lifetime.
It’s essentially easier for a woman to attain enlightenment in the proper circumstances but women rarely get these circumstances. Men constantly throw sexual energy at women and it holds them back. Women have been taught to feel they’re inadequate and become insecure and all these things that we see. That’s why our center is called Laksmi – Laksmi is the goddess of beauty and she’s a woman.
Also, men have many lifetimes. The soul doesn’t change sex that frequently. Sometimes, but people seem to stay in the same sex for long stretches and a lot of the men who study with me have studied with masters for many lives whereas women haven’t had that opportunity. So you see there’s a lot of past lives connected to it. And women are too nice – they allow themselves to be taken advantage of, again and again, which prevents them from attaining enlightenment.
Holistic Life: Along these lines, what do you think is the best way to handle the sex and spirituality problem?
Atmananda (Rama): The best way to handle it is not to handle it at all, but be yourself. I don’t believe that because a person is celibate they will attain self-realization nor do I believe that because thy have sexual experiences that they will attain self-realization -- I don’t think it has anything to do with that at all. Everyone has to figure out what’s right for themselves, to know the dharma, and if you meditate, give all you can and try to study with an enlightened person.
What takes people out is not the experience of sex, it’s the emotional attachment – the sexual act doesn’t really matter that much. Some masters have said that there is a great loss of Kundalini energy during sex. I don’t think it really matters that much – if you’re that hard up for Kundalini that losing a little bit there is going to make the difference, then you didn’t have that much to start with.
It’s the attachment, but then again, emotional relationships are very necessary for some people. So with my students I have no rules about these things. I feel we practice what we call sophisticated spirituality. Everybody takes care of themselves and runs their own lives. I teach them how to meditate and be aware and to turn to the supra-conscious states and relate to the world. So everybody has to be themselves. I think it would be a lie to try and make yourself into something you are not. It would only delay your enlightenment and I don’t think sex matters that much one way or the other – I really don’t. It’s where your heart is that matters.
Holistic Life: What are the negative or evil forces working on our lives?
Atmananda (Rama): There are negative forces, lower psychic entities and all that stuff – they exist and they have an effect on people and upon our world. One of the things we teach is how to deal with that type of energy. The way to deal with it is not to deal with it – to have nothing to do with it at all. To just deal with life, but at the same time, if you are challenged by darkness, you can’t be afraid of it. You have to be strong enough to deal with it. It’s always best not to go to war but if you go to war you should win.
Holistic Life: What’s the difference between a teacher and an guru?
Atmananda (Rama): The word guru means dispeller of darkness – a teacher is essentially the same thing. People call you what you generally call yourself, so I label myself as a spiritual teacher, therefore that’s what people call me. I feel it’s most fitting but if I grew up in this lifetime in the East, I would be called a guru. I think it’s good to work our of the context of the culture that you’re in.
Holistic Life: What do you think is the biggest obstacle to spiritual growth in our culture?
Atmananda (Rama): The media – the belief that if something is acceptable to the media then it is therefore viable. In other words, the spiritual teacher or pathway that gets the most press is in some way more valid than others. If you throw a bigger campaign for a movie it doesn’t mean it’s a better movie. In other words, people believe in appearance too much and they don’t look for or a deeper reality.
The biggest obstruction to enlightenment in the west have been the teachers that have come from the east. Certainly not all, but a vast majority of them have simply been looking for a cult following. They have just been indoctrinating followers, teaching them partial truths. Sincere people have gone to them and gotten very confused or even given up the spiritual search and they blame not the false teachers but themselves.
Holistic Life: What can an individual do on a daily basis to make leaps in his spiritual growth.
Atmanada (Rama): You have to be terribly daring – you can’t follow the crowd. If you follow the crowd, you end up in the crowd and the crowd doesn’t attain enlightenment. There’s nothing wrong with that, it’s just a different stage in the process. Nevertheless, if a per4son’s goal is enlightenment they have to be daringly different and stop worrying about enlightenment and work towards the enlightenment of others. That’s the sacred – know that you want enlightenment, find a teacher that is fully enlightened and work with him to enlighten others. You have to have an eye for the future, be totally concerned with the welfare of others and to live that.
Holistic Life: Why are so many people so fearful of the phenomenal experiences, for example, the room dissolving into golden light and so on, when you meditate?
Atmanada (Rama): Hardly anyone has ever met a person who is self-realized. They don’t understand how powerful it is. It’s not a common experience and they’re afraid, they disbelieve. They feel the reality in you relating to reality itself and it unnerves people. It always has. That’s why Christ was crucified.
You can have the Dharma right in front of you in an enlightened person and they dissolve and become a reflector of the infinite – and the infinite scares the hell out of people because it means that they might eventually become happy and clear and people don’t want that. They like to cling to unhappiness and death and frustration.
People talk about being spiritual day in and day out but very few people practice it because you have to live it. You have to care about others. You have to be humble and together.
Holistic Journal: How do you know or sense that it’s time to leave your teacher? When does the student leave the master?
Atmananda (Rama): The teacher tells you if you have a real one. Now again, if you have a false teacher, they might just like to keep you around. They’re afraid, if there’s paranoia, that you might go out and surpass them. They want your money or whatever it might be – there’s a lot of possibilities. Traditionally, when the student’s education is complete, if the student goes to the end of the process, the teacher kicks the student out – say, “Go out and do something.”
Very often many students stay with the teacher until the teacher dies. That’s because they haven’t completed their enlightenment or they just want to be with the teacher. In spite of that, a real teacher might send them away; say, “go out an work.”
Holistic Life: How many fully-realized people are there on the earth today?
Atmananda (Rama): Twelve, including myself. That’s a bold statement to make. There’re eleven others and I’m very aware of them all. And only one is a woman.
Holistic Life: With so many women represented in the “new age” why do you feel there is only one that is fully-realized?
Atmananda (Rama): Well, the reason women don’t attain enlightenment is because of men. Men have held them back. Women entering the spiritual tradition is very new. There have always been a few Buddhist nuns an stuff and of course in the Christian tradition there were sisters but they were always relegated to a secondary position, they were always s put in the back seat. As far as I know we’re one of the first spiritual organizations to deal with a focus more on women than on men. I spend a little more time with my women students because I feel that I have an exceptional group of women students. I fell a number of them will attain enlightenment in this lifetime.
It’s essentially easier for a woman to attain enlightenment in the proper circumstances but women rarely get these circumstances. Men constantly throw sexual energy at women and it holds them back. Women have been taught to feel they’re inadequate and become insecure and all these things that we see. That’s why our center is called Laksmi – Laksmi is the goddess of beauty and she’s a woman.
Also, men have many lifetimes. The soul doesn’t change sex that frequently. Sometimes, but people seem to stay in the same sex for long stretches and a lot of the men who study with me have studied with masters for many lives whereas women haven’t had that opportunity. So you see there’s a lot of past lives connected to it. And women are too nice – they allow themselves to be taken advantage of, again and again, which prevents them from attaining enlightenment.
Holistic Life: Along these lines, what do you think is the best way to handle the sex and spirituality problem?
Atmananda (Rama): The best way to handle it is not to handle it at all, but be yourself. I don’t believe that because a person is celibate they will attain self-realization nor do I believe that because thy have sexual experiences that they will attain self-realization -- I don’t think it has anything to do with that at all. Everyone has to figure out what’s right for themselves, to know the dharma, and if you meditate, give all you can and try to study with an enlightened person.
What takes people out is not the experience of sex, it’s the emotional attachment – the sexual act doesn’t really matter that much. Some masters have said that there is a great loss of Kundalini energy during sex. I don’t think it really matters that much – if you’re that hard up for Kundalini that losing a little bit there is going to make the difference, then you didn’t have that much to start with.
It’s the attachment, but then again, emotional relationships are very necessary for some people. So with my students I have no rules about these things. I feel we practice what we call sophisticated spirituality. Everybody takes care of themselves and runs their own lives. I teach them how to meditate and be aware and to turn to the supra-conscious states and relate to the world. So everybody has to be themselves. I think it would be a lie to try and make yourself into something you are not. It would only delay your enlightenment and I don’t think sex matters that much one way or the other – I really don’t. It’s where your heart is that matters.
Holistic Life: What are the negative or evil forces working on our lives?
Atmananda (Rama): There are negative forces, lower psychic entities and all that stuff – they exist and they have an effect on people and upon our world. One of the things we teach is how to deal with that type of energy. The way to deal with it is not to deal with it – to have nothing to do with it at all. To just deal with life, but at the same time, if you are challenged by darkness, you can’t be afraid of it. You have to be strong enough to deal with it. It’s always best not to go to war but if you go to war you should win.
Holistic Life: What’s the difference between a teacher and an guru?
Atmananda (Rama): The word guru means dispeller of darkness – a teacher is essentially the same thing. People call you what you generally call yourself, so I label myself as a spiritual teacher, therefore that’s what people call me. I feel it’s most fitting but if I grew up in this lifetime in the East, I would be called a guru. I think it’s good to work our of the context of the culture that you’re in.
Holistic Life: What do you think is the biggest obstacle to spiritual growth in our culture?
Atmananda (Rama): The media – the belief that if something is acceptable to the media then it is therefore viable. In other words, the spiritual teacher or pathway that gets the most press is in some way more valid than others. If you throw a bigger campaign for a movie it doesn’t mean it’s a better movie. In other words, people believe in appearance too much and they don’t look for or a deeper reality.
The biggest obstruction to enlightenment in the west have been the teachers that have come from the east. Certainly not all, but a vast majority of them have simply been looking for a cult following. They have just been indoctrinating followers, teaching them partial truths. Sincere people have gone to them and gotten very confused or even given up the spiritual search and they blame not the false teachers but themselves.
Holistic Life: What can an individual do on a daily basis to make leaps in his spiritual growth.
Atmanada (Rama): You have to be terribly daring – you can’t follow the crowd. If you follow the crowd, you end up in the crowd and the crowd doesn’t attain enlightenment. There’s nothing wrong with that, it’s just a different stage in the process. Nevertheless, if a per4son’s goal is enlightenment they have to be daringly different and stop worrying about enlightenment and work towards the enlightenment of others. That’s the sacred – know that you want enlightenment, find a teacher that is fully enlightened and work with him to enlighten others. You have to have an eye for the future, be totally concerned with the welfare of others and to live that.
Holistic Life: Why are so many people so fearful of the phenomenal experiences, for example, the room dissolving into golden light and so on, when you meditate?
Atmanada (Rama): Hardly anyone has ever met a person who is self-realized. They don’t understand how powerful it is. It’s not a common experience and they’re afraid, they disbelieve. They feel the reality in you relating to reality itself and it unnerves people. It always has. That’s why Christ was crucified.
You can have the Dharma right in front of you in an enlightened person and they dissolve and become a reflector of the infinite – and the infinite scares the hell out of people because it means that they might eventually become happy and clear and people don’t want that. They like to cling to unhappiness and death and frustration.
People talk about being spiritual day in and day out but very few people practice it because you have to live it. You have to care about others. You have to be humble and together.
Holistic Journal: How do you know or sense that it’s time to leave your teacher? When does the student leave the master?
Atmananda (Rama): The teacher tells you if you have a real one. Now again, if you have a false teacher, they might just like to keep you around. They’re afraid, if there’s paranoia, that you might go out and surpass them. They want your money or whatever it might be – there’s a lot of possibilities. Traditionally, when the student’s education is complete, if the student goes to the end of the process, the teacher kicks the student out – say, “Go out and do something.”
Very often many students stay with the teacher until the teacher dies. That’s because they haven’t completed their enlightenment or they just want to be with the teacher. In spite of that, a real teacher might send them away; say, “go out an work.”
Holistic Life: How many fully-realized people are there on the earth today?
Atmananda (Rama): Twelve, including myself. That’s a bold statement to make. There’re eleven others and I’m very aware of them all. And only one is a woman.
Holistic Life: With so many women represented in the “new age” why do you feel there is only one that is fully-realized?
Atmananda (Rama): Well, the reason women don’t attain enlightenment is because of men. Men have held them back. Women entering the spiritual tradition is very new. There have always been a few Buddhist nuns an stuff and of course in the Christian tradition there were sisters but they were always relegated to a secondary position, they were always s put in the back seat. As far as I know we’re one of the first spiritual organizations to deal with a focus more on women than on men. I spend a little more time with my women students because I feel that I have an exceptional group of women students. I fell a number of them will attain enlightenment in this lifetime.
It’s essentially easier for a woman to attain enlightenment in the proper circumstances but women rarely get these circumstances. Men constantly throw sexual energy at women and it holds them back. Women have been taught to feel they’re inadequate and become insecure and all these things that we see. That’s why our center is called Laksmi – Laksmi is the goddess of beauty and she’s a woman.
Also, men have many lifetimes. The soul doesn’t change sex that frequently. Sometimes, but people seem to stay in the same sex for long stretches and a lot of the men who study with me have studied with masters for many lives whereas women haven’t had that opportunity. So you see there’s a lot of past lives connected to it. And women are too nice – they allow themselves to be taken advantage of, again and again, which prevents them from attaining enlightenment.
Holistic Life: Along these lines, what do you think is the best way to handle the sex and spirituality problem?
Atmananda (Rama): The best way to handle it is not to handle it at all, but be yourself. I don’t believe that because a person is celibate they will attain self-realization nor do I believe that because thy have sexual experiences that they will attain self-realization -- I don’t think it has anything to do with that at all. Everyone has to figure out what’s right for themselves, to know the dharma, and if you meditate, give all you can and try to study with an enlightened person.
What takes people out is not the experience of sex, it’s the emotional attachment – the sexual act doesn’t really matter that much. Some masters have said that there is a great loss of Kundalini energy during sex. I don’t think it really matters that much – if you’re that hard up for Kundalini that losing a little bit there is going to make the difference, then you didn’t have that much to start with.
It’s the attachment, but then again, emotional relationships are very necessary for some people. So with my students I have no rules about these things. I feel we practice what we call sophisticated spirituality. Everybody takes care of themselves and runs their own lives. I teach them how to meditate and be aware and to turn to the supra-conscious states and relate to the world. So everybody has to be themselves. I think it would be a lie to try and make yourself into something you are not. It would only delay your enlightenment and I don’t think sex matters that much one way or the other – I really don’t. It’s where your heart is that matters.
Holistic Life: What are the negative or evil forces working on our lives?
Atmananda (Rama): There are negative forces, lower psychic entities and all that stuff – they exist and they have an effect on people and upon our world. One of the things we teach is how to deal with that type of energy. The way to deal with it is not to deal with it – to have nothing to do with it at all. To just deal with life, but at the same time, if you are challenged by darkness, you can’t be afraid of it. You have to be strong enough to deal with it. It’s always best not to go to war but if you go to war you should win.
[The previous post and this post comprise the completion of the article of "An Interview With Atmananda, Dr. Frederick Lenz" . . . all that remains is their intro, and here it is:
"Atmananda (Dr. Frederick Lenz) is a self-realized teacher of meditation and the director of spiritual communities in Los Angeles and San Francisco. The author of several books including "Lifetimes: True Accounts of Reincarnation, Total Relaxation, and Meditation: The Bridge is Flowing But The River Is Not," he has lectured extensively throughout the country. He has taught at several universities and is presently on the faculty at the University for Humanistic Studies.
This interview was conducted a few months ago in San Diego between an on-going series of public workshops he conducts to introduce those interested in the meditative arts to the experience of illumination and self-realization.
To a growing number of students, Atmanada represents a contemporary version of the ancient guru -- a teacher that might be more appropriately called a "Modern Master" of the meditative lifestyle. Holistic Life Magazine, Summer, 1982."] |
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